As far as the comment, "any relationship having rules" is concerned, I agree on a human plane that is true. On the God plane, I do not agree with that and you probably believe the same thing. As far as I can tell from the Bible, God the Father needs no rules for His relationship with the Son.
~ Anonymous comment, 13 Jan 2011
“Rules were made to be broken” is a common saying. Adam and Eve certainly reasoned around God’s clear commandment to not partake of the fruit of a certain tree. One prophet was persuaded that God changed his mind and was to eat a meal with another “prophet”. Ancient Israel concluded God wanted to destroy them and so refused to enter the Promised Land. And such, and so on. Human beings seem to have an infinite dislike for rules in any way, shape or form.
Why have rules to begin with? I spent a lot of last week talking about relationships, love and law. Rules are necessary to protect the relationship. Love is necessary for the same reason. Mercy is also needed when fallible human beings are involved, yet a sense of justice is required as well. In proper balance, things will flow the way God intended. Emphasizing one area at the expense of the others will truly mean broken relationships.
So what of God the Father and Jesus the Son? Do they need rules? Certainly, if God were a “trinity” then there would be no need for rules. However, even the concept of “three in one” defies relationships, in spite of what some radio preachers say. Furthermore, human beings were created in God’s image, and human beings are not somehow “three in one”.
Being made in the image of God also implies that rules are necessary even on the God plane of existence. Think about the limits of God. Yes, God has limits! Have you considered that? God cannot lie (Tit 1:2). His word is not only “truth”, but God imposes upon Himself such a standard that His not being able to lie is equated with His own greatness (Heb 6:18).
If God has rules even for Himself, then what of the relationship between the Father and the Son?
Consider, if you will:
1. A rule that is willingly followed is a rule nonetheless. It’s state of being a rule or a law isn’t dependent upon the willingness of the person carrying it out. Obviously, Jesus willingly did His Father’s will, which may lead some to speculate that He did not need any rules, but the fact that He did His Father’s “will” means there was a standard to follow.
2. The Law is the written expression of the will of God. Even more, it is the written expression of His character. By following the Law, we are conforming to His will and becoming more like Him. In order for that to be true, it necessarily follows that God Himself follows rules.
3. God is not the author of confusion (1Co 14:33). The creation has order to it. Nature has laws. If the Law is the written expression of God’s character, then nature is the physical representation of God’s creativity. Within His creation are fundamental laws and physical principles at work.
4. God has a spiritual plan for all of mankind. HWA taught that the holy days outline God’s plan. Jesus was well aware of this plan, and He willingly gave Himself to it. What is a plan but a general set of rules and guidelines with some sort of timeline associated with it?
5. Jesus always pointed to the Father, spoke of His Father’s will and told others to seek His will. Jesus talks of doing the will of the Father (Mt 11:27) and receiving commands from the Father (Jn 10:18; 12:49-50).
6. To me, one of the biggest proofs against a “trinity” is that Jesus begged His Father to “take away this cup from me” (Mk 14:36), yet He still said, “Not what I will, but what thou wilt” (ibid). He submitted His will to God’s will up until the end. It shows that they were different personalities. It also shows that Jesus knew God’s will, God’s plan and the right path to take.
7. The Bible itself speaks of Jesus’ obedience “unto death” (Php 2:8). Heb 5:8-9 even tells us that Jesus “learned he obedience” and “being made perfect” (or, “being made complete”), telling us that even Jesus underwent a qualifying process for becoming High Priest (cf NLT).
Having said that, will “rules” and “law” mean the same thing when the New Jerusalem descends to earth as they do today? I doubt it. Our sins and shortcomings are somewhat in the forefront right now because we are still flesh and blood. We must purposefully overcome and beg God the strength to do so. However, once the influences of the flesh, Satan and his world are gone, our character will be second nature. It won’t be that the Law will be irrelevant, but rather that God will have molded and shaped us with our willing participation to the point that it will be an intrinsic part of us.
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (Hebrews 10:16, King James Version)
Certainly, if God were a “trinity” then there would be no need for rules.
What does a trinity have to do with that? How is Matthew 19:26, "with God all things are possible," made null and void by the Holy Spirit being God?
Why would it nullify miraculous events such as the parting of the Red Sea — which at least defied the rules of physics?
P.S. My pastor said during a sermon a few years ago, "God loves rules." You only have to move one letter to make that "God's love rules." Which should be emphasized more?
It seems to me the starting place for "church government" (just the start) is what we read every passover in John concerning the "oneness" of God and how both the Father and Son want to be one with us in the same way.
John 17
20. I do not pray for these only, but also for those who shall believe in Me through their word;
21. That they all may be one, even as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, in order that the world may believe that You did send Me.
22. And I have given them the glory that You gave to Me, in order that they be may one, in the same way that We are one:
23. I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one; and that the world may know that You did send Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
We know Christ said to Phillip that "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" John 14:8-11. There is a perfect unity in the God family.
It is useful to understand the goal in advance of our being able to fully attain it.
I Timothy 1:9 – "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers"
That verse discusses serious infractions of God's law – but we can't we also extend that to the many "rules" and offices we make in our corporate entities – points of authority to quell debates and differences of opinion between us. Will those really be necessary in the future?
The model God has given us is the human family. How many rules must a family have to keep harmony? It depends on the family of course – but some have near perfect harmony without many or any rules at all. They operate on more unspoken agreements based on love.
We can see the Apostolic church began that way – with power. To the extent we lack that power now (easily evident) – we rely on human tools, laws and procedures that can never bring true unity.
But even more – consider that our relationships with each other are actually "holy" – based on God's spirit – His very presence. We are a "holy nation" – the household of God.
Right after the 10 commandments were given in Exodus 20, God gave instructions on building an altar. The altar was "holy" and could have no human tool laid on the stones. That is a biblical theme with anything that is holy – remember Moses had to remove his shoes before stepping on holy ground (God was there). His shoes were made with human hands.
Do we use human tools, human management techniques and humanly derived organizations to manage our relationships with each other in the church?
As a long time member of the old WCG I can emphatically say that we certainly did. And as I see groups that will not even reach across at Festivals and talk to one another – sometimes having the Festivals in the very same hotel – I think we are not making much progress.
Richard wrote: "What does a trinity have to do with that?"
Because with a trinity, God is essentially the same person. In that case, there would be no interpersonal relationship between Father and Son, and hence no need for any type of order between them. That's one more reason why the trinity does not make sense.
"Which should be emphasized more?"
You seem to be missing the point. You have to have a balance.
Stephen Doucet wrote: "Do we use human tools, human management techniques and humanly derived organizations to manage our relationships with each other in the church?"
Yes, and no. On the one hand, the church is far too often treated like a corporation. In one sense, it is. However, if we never move beyond that point, then it also becomes less of a church. We should be a church first and a corporation second.
"As a long time member of the old WCG I can emphatically say that we certainly did. And as I see groups that will not even reach across at Festivals and talk to one another – sometimes having the Festivals in the very same hotel – I think we are not making much progress."
It keeps going back to: What are the 2 most important rules of all?
In terms of the moral law – God's nature and behavior is not produced by rules. It is the other way around – God's nature and behavior is only described by rules. God's law is described for those who do not have His nature or do not have it fully. Paul said that even Gentiles who do not have the law – yet do what the law demands are a "law unto themselves".
And yet that description (law) is completely inadequate to create God's nature in those who do not have His spirit. Recall the example of Job.
You pointed out Christ "learned" to obey – and that is true. But that was because Jesus was born as an infant and had to learn everything just as we do. The big difference is that he had the holy spirit fully from the start and thus learned the law as one who could fulfill it (by His nature).
In my previous post I did not want to give the impression that God's nature is variable – that God operates like some human families that operate well "without rules". God's nature is always the same and can always be described by the exact same rules.
But aside from the moral law (which was my context) – we in the church of God (there is only one church) have been accustomed over many years to create organizational rules and procedures that are like a family with a bunch of extra rules posted on the refrigerator.
Unfortunately – those additional rules (not God's law) too often become primary and overshadow the real functioning of the church which is holy. Those organizational rules are man made and eventually separate and close off a flock – they do not unify the body.
No organizational church "rule" can take precedence over God's law or His command to be "one" and to "love one another". That doesn't mean that different flocks might not handle business matters differently – but it certainly should not prevent us from talking and meeting with each other at Festivals. Can you imagine not talking or meeting with your own family members on important occasions?
I suspect that unless we get these things straight – our splinters are doomed to continue splintering and declining. Indeed – which splinter is growing?
We will be replaced by other flocks who have never heard of Herbert W. Armstrong or the WCG and they will grow. They are already out there.
Stephen wrote: "In terms of the moral law – God's nature and behavior is not produced by rules. It is the other way around – God's nature and behavior is only described by rules. God's law is described for those who do not have His nature or do not have it fully."
Nice comment. Lying is wrong because God is truth! There isn't a law that restrains God from lying. It's impossible for Him to lie. He needs no rules to guide His behavior or character.
If the "law" restrained God, then what a wimp of a god we would be worshipping. He acts purely out of His character – love. The law defines God's character, not for Himself – He has no need for that, but the law defines God's character in the negative sense – i.e. "Thou shalt NOT") for sinners. God's character far exceeds the law, which is for sinners like us.
Stephen quoted, "I Timothy 1:9 – 'Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers.'"
The law makes no changes to the heart, only God (pure LOVE) makes those changes. Look at the gun laws – thousands and it does not stop the evil, murderous, angry heart. The problem is the heart. The law is only there to reflect error and strike fear into the heart in hopes of minimizing sin. The law sends the best moral person to hell because they do NOT measure up to the character of God. The law does not establish righteousness, nor does it establish the relationship God has on His level.