Judging from the number of people that follow false teachers, it doesn’t seem likely that enough do #ProveAllThings from our #BibleStudy.
2 A fool does not delight in understanding,
but only wants to show off his opinions.
The website move once again showed me the folly of technology, or at least the people who create technology. There are always 20 different ways to do anything, and, BTW, 19 of them are obsolete even if they appear at the top of search results. Most of the guides will contradict one another, and far too often you go way down a rabbit hole only to discover that the instructions were meant for some other platform or version of software entirely. Don’t even get me started about instructions that are incomplete or even downright wrong! Many times, in technology the proof is in the doing.
The Internet is full of answers, but they are often conflicting, incomplete or wrong. Sometimes, you simply have to try it out to see if it works, which is type of proof by doing and checking the results. Sometimes, too, the answers you get depend upon the questions you ask, and knowing the right questions can make your life a lot easier.
In mathematics as well, the proof is often by doing, although the answers are often more cut and dried. You may have had to do mathematical proofs in high school, where you took a theorem and either proved it or disproved it. Of course, you can also study how others proved or disproved a theorem as well to learn something new.
Still, advancements in math and science generally come by asking questions. As many scientific studies have shown, however, asking the wrong question can lead to questionable answers. It is important to ask questions, but it is more important to ask the right questions.
Now, this isn’t an article on apologetics. So, if you are reading this then I’ll assume you have at least proved something, but mainly that God exists, that He is true and that the Bible is His word. Yet, if that is the end of your questioning, then you’ll still fall well short. Most people reading this will realize that the practices of mainstream Christianity fall well short of what the Bible actually says. Therefore, it is appropriate to keep on asking questions.
After we are baptized, is there a time to quit asking questions?
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
~ 1Th 5:21
Who is Paul addressing here? Is he only addressing the unbaptized? Would that even be realistic?
But of the times and the seasons, brethren …
~ v 1
But ye, brethren …
~ v 4
Ye are all the children of light …
~ v 5
And so on. This sounds like he is addressing baptized members.
So, let’s play a game of “Where Is That Written?” I often hear various things that make no sense, so it is time that it has been pointed out exactly where that thing is written — no hand waving, no smoke and mirrors, no talking around — simply point out where it is written exactly the way it is being portrayed.
Place of Safety
This is a common phrase among those who practice save your own behind Christianity. Where is this phrase in the Bible? It does not exist! Notice that Revelation 12 says “her place”, which may or may not be a place of safety. It might be and probably will be a place of learning. However, fear mongers like to gain a following by scaring them into following them. Ironically, by following such people proves you are not truly worthy because you are placing traditions of men above God’s doctrines.
No Biblical Month Has More Than Thirty Days
Ironically, the claim that the Bible contains a calendar and that is the only source we must use falls apart on its own accord when they start contradicting that very notion. The Bible says “new moon”, but it never defines it. However, if it must mean a visible crescent and if it must be observed, then if the twenty-ninth day is cloudy, they will postpone the beginning of the month to the following day. However, what if it is still cloudy on the thirtieth day? If the moon must be observed, then where does the Bible allow someone — anyone — to declare it a new month in spite of not observing it? Where does the Bible say how many days is in a month?
Iran Is the King of the South
Prove it. Iran lies east of Jerusalem, and Tehran is actually north somewhat of Jerusalem. Iran is one of the remnants of the Persian Empire. The Medo-Persian Empire was the continuation of the statue of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of. IOW, it was the precursor to the King of the North, not the South!
UCG Says Extremist Islam is the King of the South
I have asked for proof of this before, and the evidence is still wanting. Please produce one booklet or article where this is stated.
The fact is that no one I know of in the COG community teaches or has taught this.
So, prove it.
The End Time Sacrifices That Will Be Stopped Are Not Physical
IOW, “Don’t believe your Bibles, but believe me instead.” This is just the opposite approach of what HWA always taught to approach the Bible. Prophecy often involves a lot of symbolism, but that symbolism is explained elsewhere (or at least we are told it is withheld). If it is not expressed as a symbol, then it is literal. Always.
Prophecy is in the Bible so that people going through hard times can have hope. Prophecy is one of the proofs that the Bible and God are true. We cannot prove what we cannot see, and by spiritualizing prophecy away, we are basically calling God’s integrity into question.
After the Great Disappointment, EG White decided to spiritualize away prophecy by claiming that the calculations were not wrong, but that what they were interpreting them as was wrong. She claimed that Christ entered the sanctuary to cleanse it on that day. This so-called prophetess went on to make several other prophetic claims that never came true.
It seems we do not learn from history.
The Bible Prohibits Cooking on the Sabbath
Verse, please. I assume you are reading the same Bible, BTW, which tells the priests to kill animals, drain the blood and roast them with fire on the Sabbath and holy days. If that’s not cooking, then what is? In fact, it was a lot of work, period, which also points out that not all work is condemned on the Sabbath. An exception was made for the work of the Tabernacle/Temple.
So, in that light, where does it say, “Thou shalt not cook…”?
I want to emphasize that the Bible’s center of attention is on Asia. Asians cook their food fresh. They have small refrigerators, and they don’t package very many items to be transported hundreds of miles away. They shop daily so they can cook the freshest meals possible.
That has several implications. One is that the notion that Nehemiah was only condemning weekly grocery shopping is laughable, as that is a very western, very US-centric, sort of argument that has no bearing on peoples of the East. The second is that since cooking was normally done daily, then the prohibition would have been made clearer.
The miracle of the manna showed no such thing either. They were told to cook it the day before because:
- We should do what we can to prepare ahead of the Sabbath. Most of our food is already so processed, however, that this is not normally a big deal.
- It apparently needed to be cooked in order to last more than one day. Furthermore, there is no prohibition against warming it up or even using the prepared manna in other dishes.
- When the people were criticized for sinning in this manner it was because they were gathering on the Sabbath, and nothing is said of them cooking on the Sabbath.
An important parallel is the man gathering wood on the Sabbath. His crime was breaking the Sabbath by chopping up and gathering wood, not by starting a fire.
I’m curious as to why people think God is so harsh and stern as to condemn people for not following something that is vague and not spelled out. It is amazing how much people will make God out to be as much of a micromanaging insecure being as they read into the text.
Great Falling Away
There is no such phrase in the Bible. It is “falling away”. Period. Everything added is rubbish.
Delusions of grandeur entice certain people to believe that large numbers of people follow them in order for them to have anything to fall away from. The unconverted cannot fall away because they were never “there” to begin with.
You Own No Assets
“A fool and his money are soon parted.” If you are giving your money to a cause, it is incumbent upon you to ensure it is fulfilling the purpose for giving it. God might help protect the foolish from themselves to some degree, but he won’t rewarded them for being foolish either.
Several men in the Bible were rich: Abraham, Job, King David, etc. They were rich because God rewarded them and they were good stewards of the blessings God gave them. Most of Jesus’ parables centered around money. Why? Because He knew it was an indicator, and it was an indicator that even the world understands. He who values God’s blessings will do their best to care for those blessings, but the ungrateful will not.
10 “One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much.
And just how “little” is wealth, anyhow, in the scheme of things?
2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.
Is this only in the spiritual things but not in the physical? If I steal a physical cake, am I not still guilty of stealing? Therefore, if I disregard the physical blessings of the Creator, am I not showing my ingratitude?
8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Obviously, Paul is talking about the physical needs of a man’s relatives here. By not providing for their physical needs, which normally involves money along the way, that man is worse than an infidel!
By the way, not only should we take care of our families now, but we should leave enough behind to take care of generations when possible.
22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children’s children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.
~ Pr 13:22
By demanding they hand over all their money for their personal idols, Pack and Flurry are causing their members to sin against God and their families!
I could have written down even more examples, but I think you get the point. We don’t turn off our logic and reasoning at baptism. Jesus said we are to love God with all of our mind as well as our physical and emotional selves. The hat hooks at the church entrance are not for hanging up our brains.
To stop questioning and being curious about God’s word is the same as complacency. And that is a dangerous game indeed!
This is a very different thing than finding things to argue about or find fault over. That too is a dangerous game. The differences are in the motivation and attitude.
Very interesting post! I like your comment where you wrote: “…This is a common phrase among those who practice save your own behind Christianity. Where is this phrase in the Bible? It does not exist!…”
It made me think about some other phrases that do not exist, such as:
The Great Tribulation! This is a common phrase among those who practice save your own behind Christianity. Where is this phrase in the Bible? It does not exist!
The Second Coming! This is a common phrase among those who practice save your own behind Christianity. Where is this phrase in the Bible? It does not exist!
The Unpardonable Sin! This is a common phrase among those who practice save your own behind Christianity. Where is this phrase in the Bible? It does not exist!…………etc.
I hope you are enjoying a delightful Sabbath, that is, that you are calling today’s “sabbath a delight”
@John G: Are you sure about that?
No, not in that modern phrase, but “come again” is repeated literally (Jn 4:3, 28) and in Jesus’ parables, not to mention the writings of Paul and the Book of Revelation. Are you saying Christ is not going to return?
Besides, how is that cover your butt Christianity? It seems you have jumped the track completely, for Christ’s return is our greatest hope for a world held captive by the enemy.
There is a difference between phrasing things differently and whether or not the Bible supports it. For example, the Bible doesn’t say “second resurrection”, but Rev 20 (and several of Jesus’ parables) makes it quite clear that there is more than one.
Again, you are splitting hairs. Try “blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven”. So, again, you might be technically correct, but, since blasphemy is sin and it says there is a type that will not be forgiven, the unforgivable or unpardonable sin is a very real concept.
At any rate, it seems you have totally missed the point. The Bible does not state or even imply that the woman goes to a place of “safety” or “protection”. What is the purpose of the woman fleeing? Simply put, God does nothing without a witness. Some of those witnesses must die, whereas a few must remain to the end to witness and learn, so that after Christ does return, they can teach others from what they have observed and experienced.
This entire life is a classroom. Otherwise, why not just end it after baptism?
However, will God accept those who cling on merely to save their own behinds? Because that is exactly what some preach! It is a contradiction that we are supposed to lean the way of selflessness and “give” and then turn around and belong to a certain group in order to save our own hides.
Here is what the Bible says about that:
Regarding the “Second Coming” you mentioned: “…No, not in that modern phrase, but “come again” is repeated literally (Jn 4:3, 28) and in Jesus’ parables, not to mention the writings of Paul and the Book of Revelation. Are you saying Christ is not going to return?
Besides, how is that cover your butt Christianity? It seems you have jumped the track completely, for Christ’s return is our greatest hope for a world held captive by the enemy….”
Christ’s return is a great hope, but the greatest? Perhaps God resurrecting us may be an even greater hope, because we are confident that Christ will return.
Once upon a time Christ came, lived on earth for a period of time, was murdered, placed in a grave after His death and then resurrected. We have the following verses, easily overlooked by many, which describe Jesus Christ coming again to earth, a second time (technically, biblically-speaking):
John 20:11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Other verses could also be cited, but Jesus, after His resurrection, left earth and went to His Father that same day and later returned to earth for a second time.
Now, is there going to be a third coming? A fourth coming? A fifth coming? Yes, Jesus will come again. My point was that people just throw the phrase “second coming” around as if the verses cited in John 20 never occurred. Why not a “third coming,” but something other than a “second coming” would be far more appropriate. Regardless of what is written here, people will probably still say “second coming,” but God gave us lots of details so that we could really be more Biblically accurate in what we are saying in regards to Christ’s returns.
John G wrote: “Christ’s return is a great hope, but the greatest? Perhaps God resurrecting us may be an even greater hope, because we are confident that Christ will return.”
Since they both occur at the same time … 🙂
“Other verses could also be cited, but Jesus, after His resurrection, left earth and went to His Father that same day and later returned to earth for a second time.”
Like anything else, it depends upon how you choose to count it. After all, the OT theophanies could just as easily be counted as well. The difference is that He did not stay. Likewise, He ascended to the throne and present Himself to the Father but did not stay. Generally, people regard His first coming as extending from His birth to the ascension witnessed by the disciples, and this is done even by people who recognize the OT theophanies.
I have traveled the world. I have spent years outside of the country, let alone the state. However, technically I have always lived in Ohio and have paid Ohio state taxes. So, which is more accurate? I have lived in Ohio one time or two?
Is there a third resurrection? All we are told is that there is a first resurrection and one following. If there is a third as has always been taught, then is it really a third or simply part of the process of the second? It depends upon how you choose to count them, no?
At any rate, you haven’t made your point, at all, about second coming = save your butt Christianity. I’d really like to know how that applies.
You mentioned: “…I have traveled the world. I have spent years outside of the country, let alone the state. However, technically I have always lived in Ohio and have paid Ohio state taxes. So, which is more accurate? I have lived in Ohio one time or two?…”
Well, Jesus Christ spends most of His time in Heaven, so did He live in Heaven one time or two? We know Christ will be in Heaven until all enemies are subdued, and the last enemy is death. So, when death is finally eliminated, and Christ comes to earth, will that be His “second coming?”
You kind of hit the nail on the head when you mentioned in an earlier reply above that: “,,,but “come again” is repeated literally (Jn 4:3, 28) and in Jesus’ parables, not to mention the writings of Paul and the Book of Revelation….” And that was my point: there are several comings involved, not just two…and if one lumps those first two comings together one will become confused. Just lumping Christ’s return into a “second coming,” as if it were some final coming, is not proper to do.
1 Corinthians 15:26 “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”
We may ask the question: when will death, the last enemy, be eliminated? Before the 1,000 year millennium? After the 1,000 year millennium?
The Apostle Paul told us:
“But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?” Hebrews 1:13
Many verses speak about Jesus being at the God’s right hand. Does He return after the 6 Trumps and the 7th Trump occurs? The 7 Trumps are the wrath of the Lamb: not God’s wrath? Does He return after the 7 Vials, God’s wrath, occurs?
Mt 22:44 “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?”
Just some more food for thought. I believe as you said there are many mentions of Christ and the phrase “come again,” so there are at least 2 comings…….and it appears that the Bible actually mentions more, but context has to be looked at for those other comings.
It appears that Christ, in different form than His first coming, returning to earth after His resurrection is a clear “second coming,” which only lasted about 40 days.
@John G: Well, you continue to gloss over the question as to why “second coming” = “save your behind Christianity”.
At any rate, language is alway imprecise, and certain phrases have meaning beyond the literal meanings of the phrase. Those have to be taken into account. “Second coming” refers to the fact that Jesus came once to live and stay for a while as a human being, and thus He will return and stay for a while, in the second case 1,000 years. That is what your Bible says, and you can read into it all you want to, but Christ will come and resurrect the saints, and they will reign “on the earth” (Rev 5:10).
This is exactly the sort of thing I’m talking about, in fact. Eisegesis is reading your own ideas into the text, and heresies often start with taking small insignificant details out of context and making a big deal out of them, no matter what other clear Scriptures say. You are subconsciously inserting “all” into the text, and turning what is referring to God’s physical enemies into spiritual and symbolic ones as well. There is no justification for doing so.
At any rate, if I lived in Germany for 4 years and visited Spain, I would not say I had stayed in Germany twice. Otherwise, I’d have to count it every time I took a tour, returned home for a visit, etc. No, I would say I stayed in Germany once during those 4 years.
Jesus returned to the Father for quite considerably less than 24 hours after His resurrection. He visited home, IOW. I’d consider that merely a break in his first coming (and staying). If you want to count it as two, knock yourself out, but it does not change the fact that His entrance into this world was heralded by angels and a big deal made out of it, and His ascension was accompanied by angels and witnesses and a big deal made out of it. It looks and feels like a single period of time to me.
You wrote: “…That is what your Bible says, and you can read into it all you want to, but Christ will come and resurrect the saints, and they will reign “on the earth” (Rev 5:10)…”
That is absolutely true, but as you also said: “… It looks and feels like a single period of time to me…”
And I must admit that once upon a time I agreed with that, but then, amongst other things, I considered the following verse, which also applies to the saints:
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE shall SEE HIM, and they also which PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
And in this particular coming it says that “every eye shall see Him.” Every eye at this coming with clouds? And the example is given regarding those that pierced him, the Roman soldiers. The question is: Will every eye, including Roman soldiers, see Him at that second coming? 1st coming? 3, 4th, 5th coming, etc.? Or, said another way, we know clouds exist when the saints are resurrected…and clouds exist when “every eye shall see Him.” That is, will “every eye see Him,” including Roman soldiers, when Christ meets the saints in the clouds at that particular coming…or are there other coming(s) to occur?
If you want to leave it all as a single coming; that’s fine. We will just agree to disagree. This thread was interesting to think about. Thanks for sharing…
@John G: Well, I still think you are stretching this out, perhaps beyond the breaking point. Let me remind you that many (most?) of the Pharisees and scribes believed there were two Messiahs: One a conquering king, and one a suffering Messiah, and they believed it would occur in that order. So, when John sent his disciples to Jesus to ask if there was another, it was not exactly the show of doubt that some make it out to be. What most of the religious teachers could not envision was that the prophecies, which are intermixed together very often as though they were the same timeframe, referred to the same individual at different points in time.
There is only one verse in the Bible that can be read to make out a 3rd resurrection. However, is that really talking about a different time, or is it referring backwards to the time period just referred to? Prophecy is not so clear cut in many cases, and we do not have all of the answers. However, we have enough to know when it occurs, if we have open minds and understand the time sequences are at times purposefully vague.
Consider as well that the soldier with the spear at Christ’s death may have very well have been dead by the time Revelation was written. In fact, John was in his 90s, so were any of the soldiers who pierced Him in any way still alive? So, then, what could he have possibly meant?
Consider who pierced Jesus:
1. The people who were literally there. They will see Him again at their resurrection.
2. The descendants of those who caused Jesus’ death, either directly or indirectly. Surely some of them will be around when He returns.
3. All of us symbolically have pierced Him. That in fact is what Passover pictures.
Some of groups 2 & 3 surely will see Him at the exact moment of His return. All groups will see Him just after the Millennium, which is what Christ’s return heralds. If you view that as His “second coming”, and view it as extending through the coming of the New Jerusalem, then there is no mystery to be solved here.
You wrote: “…There is only one verse in the Bible that can be read to make out a 3rd resurrection. However, is that really talking about a different time, or is it referring backwards to the time period just referred to?…”
Just curious, but what is the one verse in the Bible that can be used to possibly make out a 3rd resurrection? The Bible is very clear, “black and white,” about two resurrections. I know of one individual who has strived to justify a 3rd resurrection by using a verse from one of Jesus’ spoken parables, but it is pure speculation on that author’s part.
You went on to say: “…Consider as well that the soldier with the spear at Christ’s death may have very well have been dead by the time Revelation was written. In fact, John was in his 90s, so were any of the soldiers who pierced Him in any way still alive? So, then, what could he have possibly meant?…”
Yes, I totally agree, the soldiers who pieced Christ had died, so it means that a future resurrection was going to happen and they would live again and “see” Christ again at some time in the future beyond their lives and deaths.
Then you asked us to consider who pierced Jesus and mentioned 3 groups and concluded by saying:
“…Some of groups 2 & 3 surely will see Him at the exact moment of His return. All groups will see Him just after the Millennium, which is what Christ’s return heralds. If you view that as His “second coming”, and view it as extending through the coming of the New Jerusalem, then there is no mystery to be solved here…”
I think lumping all comings into one and calling it a “second coming” is very vague, but I understand people doing that; however, Christ told some of his disciples that He was going to go and “…prepare a place for you,” (John 14:2-4). That place was not to be on earth. After all Jesus was on earth for awhile until He was murdered, was death and in grave for 3 days/nights completing a purpose(s) for that particular coming: Christ’s 1st coming.
Then He was resurrected in spirit form and left earth to go and be accepted by His Father in Heaven.
Some time later the same day Jesus returned to earth the 2nd time, not as a human being but, as an immortal spirit being and only remained on earth for about 40 days, being seen by hundreds of people, and then was last seen going up into clouds (Acts1), thus completing His “second coming” to this earth.
How many times would Jesus return? The number may be debated, but it appears that He would come again, a 3rd time, at some point in the future because He told His disciples: “…And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” Jesus did not prepare a place on earth for them, yet He must “come again” and receive the disciples unto Himself…and go to someplace prepared for them disciples. This very likely is the resurrection of all of the sealed Firstfruits, members of God’s Church, after a period of hundreds of years…resurrected at the time the 2 witnesses are made alive (the 7th Trump is part of the wrath of the Lamb). This biblically-speaking is not a “second coming,” b/c that already occurred. It could be a 3rd though…and those resurrected will meet Christ in the clouds and go to whatever place was prepared for them (assuming Christ completed that preparation). Revelation 14 and 15 clearly speak of the Firstfruits being in the vicinity of God’s Throne. How long? It doesn’t say. So, is there another coming? Satan is in the pit for a 1,000 years.
After a 1,000 years Satan is loosed from the pit and that thing again deceives the world and even takes over Jerusalem. Could Satan succeed at doing all of that if Jesus were in Jerusalem? Over the period of a short/little time/season of Satan doing his thing again the 7 Vials (not wrath of the Lamb, but the wrath of Almighty God) are poured out. It is not a partial destruction of a 1/3 of this and 1/3 of that as Christ’s wrath was, but is virtually total. The 7 Trump over a 1,000 years earlier did what was necessary to save Christ’s Bride and stop Satan’s destruction and put that thing into the pit.
Now, the 7 Vials are going to put an end to Satan’s deception/destruction once and for all! That everlasting peace was yet ahead of this time of destruction. The 7 Vials was far worse than the 7 Trumps and when it is said, “It is done:” it is done! Something is done. A curse that has been on earth is about to cease, and the Vials were poured out in the presence of the Lamb…..is that Christ’s 4th coming? And the 2nd resurrection is yet to occur! The Vials, when one reads the utter destruction that takes place, seen to put an end to all physical life on earth (remember the sealed Firstfruits, the Bride, is alive and with the Lamb wherever He goes). How much time goes by before the following occurs? The Bible does not say.
But beyond that time period there is talk of a new Heavens/earth (Revelation 21) and Christ is coming again (a 5th coming?) with His Bride to set up some really good news for those billions to be resurrected as human beings……and finally: “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Revelation 21:4
This is probably “enough” for this particular thread, but your initial post does make one “think” more deeply about the scriptures…
John G wrote: “Christ told some of his disciples that He was going to go and ‘…prepare a place for you,’ (John 14:2-4). That place was not to be on earth. ”
And, that of course is where you are terribly deceived. Jesus will come again to the earth, and He and the saints will rule on the earth, clear verse already quoted. Since you refuse to listen to clear Scripture, I consider this discussion over.