Another Disaster of Reasoning From John Elliot

I cannot even read this all the way through, as it absolutely makes my blood boil. I have never seen such a shameful example of a minister to excuse, justify and explain away bad behavior!

He could have summed it up more concisely thusly: “The COE is right, they will always be right, and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong and needs to repent.”

Dear members of the GCE,

In Numbers 12, God openly demonstrated the process of reconciliation for His people. He then repeats it over and over throughout Scripture. Will we listen to Him, or demand that He follow our ill-devised processes?

God recorded a bona-fide issue with someone in top leadership.

Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman (Numbers 12:1).

We might all take issue with what Moses did. But notice that in being justified with righteous indignation, they transitioned into rejecting the authority in the Church.

So they said, “Has the LORD indeed spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us also?” (Verse 2).

Some have created a similar situation in UCG today by saying, “Since we have painted Church authorities as imperfect, careless, cowboy-ish, doctrine-changing, bloc voting, illegals, we certainly don’t have to submit to them! Let them come reconcile with us.”

Is calling an “Acts 15-style” conference (which rendered a judgment about circumcision) what God intends for reconciliation? Or, is our “ministry of reconciliation” based on something else? Let’s see…

So Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord! Please do not lay this sin on us, in which we have done foolishly and in which we have sinned” (Verse 11).

Reconciliation in Scripture always begins with an individual recognizing that he or she is in a position of error. Biblical reconciliation is always initiated by the separated individual. Biblical reconciliation is always prompted by that offending individual repenting and seeking forgiveness and restoration. No instance of reconciliation in Scripture involves compromising with the rejection of authority, or with rebellion to it. Rather, God simply removes such people (Genesis 2:23, Numbers 16:32-33, Matthew 7:23, Titus 3:10, 2 Thessalonians 3:6, Rev 21:8).

You and I are invited to reconcile with / “be healed” with God. We have been like sheep “going astray” and the process for our reconciliation is laid out in Scripture.

…who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed (reconciled). For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls (1Peter 2:24-25).

We are to be a “ministry of reconciliation.” But, let’s also note that the context describes the process.

we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20).

Offenders are called on to repent and seek forgiveness and be reconciled.

Here is yet another example:

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

The solution is simple: do what Aaron did, do what new converts are to do, do what Christ and His bride will teach in the Millennium — See the sin, apologize, repent, and thereby be reconciled. The process begins and ends with each individual humbly seeking reconciliation with the Authority above:

Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded (James 4:8).

That is the only way for reconciliation, restoration, and healing division (James 4:1).

Ministers of UCG bound themselves to submit to the governing documents and the authorities instituted by them (Ministerial Code of Ethics). A requirement in being one who will dwell in with God is he “swears to his own hurt and does not change” (Psalm 15:3-4). Our troubles spring up when we do not submit to the authorities and the processes which we agreed to follow.

We ministers have always taught submission to God, His Word, His Church, its governing documents, its leaders, its policies, and its directives. Some have made it easier to follow than others, but submission has always been an integral part of the test.

Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good (1 Peter 2:13-14).

Mr. Armstrong said, “Your salvation boils down to one thing — Will you submit to authority?” Trashing authority so one doesn’t have to submit to it is as old as the Book (Genesis 3:5). Do you think God changed His mind about that lately? Or is that a trait of something quite different (Jude 1:8)?

Should you or I decide to rebel against authority, a big conference won’t bring reconciliation. Rather, that comes when we individually repent, apologize and seek to be re-attached. Such can be avoided in the first place by just learning to say, “Yes, sir” to those over us.

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God (Romans 13:1).

God is upholding the authority of our current Church leaders and we should follow Paul’s instruction “that you also submit to such, and to everyone who works and labors with us” (1 Corinthians 16:16). Each individual who chooses to do so is reconciled with the Body that is working and growing together (Ephesians 4:16).

Wishing everyone personal repentance and reconciliation with the governing authorities,

John Elliott


  1. “The COE is right, they will always be right, and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong and needs to repent.”

    You have nailed it!! That is their basic attitude.
    I listened to a recent sermon from Scott Ashley and I got the impression he is of the same opinion as J. Elliot. (These men have become decieved.)
    However, I personally do not condon what some of these ministers are now doing–continuing to draw a paycheck from UCG while scheming behind the scenes to break away when the "other organization" is up and running–much like some did when UCG was formed. If you are against it stand up and say so and take your lumps, if that is what it takes to be right in God's eyes—DON'T BE DECIETFUL!!!

    Anony Jon

  2. Is this the same minister who is deeply concerned with arctic circles and believes AND teaches that obeying the 10 Commandments are not an expression of the Love of God?

    If his position were true on obedience to MEN regardless of their behavior … then I guess we all better pucker up.

  3. safeTmanEd says…

    Yes, I saw this a few days ago. What a lovely attitude. How did he ever leave WCG with this reasoning?

    Since he likes to quote HWA, he also wrote the following during the very early years in a article called "Did Christ reorganize the church":

    "Jesus said, "Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be ROOTED UP!" Our heavenly Father never planted any super-organization, or established any church GOVERNMENT, or set men IN AUTHORITY over either spiritual or financial affairs, in the New Testament Church."

    "There is not one single HINT in the New Testament of any Church BOARD with authority to rule, to govern, to decide doctrine, or to handle tithes and church finances (the whole church). In a later number we shall devote an article to explaining Acts 15, which certainly sets no such example."

    "All authority and power to rule is limited solely to each LOCAL congregation. But there is NO BIBLE AUTHORITY for any super-government, or organization with authority over the local congregations!"

    "What has split and divided up the saints in the Church of God? Nothing but ORGANIZATION — which has led to politics, ministers lusting for rule and for power — striving against each other, lining up the brethren on THEIR side, against the other! It is SUCH PREACHERS who have split up and divided our brethren!"

    But of course, he change his mind and formed WCG. I think he might have been right the first time!!!

  4. Of course God spoke to Moses face to face. Not heard anyone on the COE claim that yet.

  5. By that reasoning there could never be an appropriate attempt by the GCE to get something on the ballot or to remove a COE member, both of which are allowed in the bylaws.

    "Reconciliation in Scripture always begins with an individual recognizing that he or she is in a position of error"

    I'll have to try that with my wife next time we have a disagreement. "You just have to admit you are wrong."

    I'll let you know how that works.

    The problem is that with a representative govt by consensus in UCG there will always be those with differing opinions. That doesn't make them all wrong. That kind of attitude pushes people towards splitting that otherwise may not.

  6. @Anonymous #2: Yes, this is the "Arctic Circle guy".

    safeTmanEd wrote: "How did he ever leave WCG with this reasoning?"

    I'm not sure I actually want to understand his reasoning. Otherwise, I agree with you.

    Anonymous wrote: "I'll have to try that with my wife next time we have a disagreement. 'You just have to admit you are wrong.'"

    Give me the address of the hospital so you I can visit you. ;->


    Isn't there some confusion about who is in charge, the GCE or the COE?

    Obviously, there are some lessons in the scriptures about the rebellions or disrespect shown against Moses. We are to show respect towards those God places over us in authority. But who is in authority in UCG?

    Is the COE under the authority of the GCE, or is the GCE under the authority of the COE? That is why I have repeatedly posted about the problems in having the GCE have the authority to select, and remove, members of the COE, while the COE has that same authority over the GCE.

    Because in fact, it works both ways. Just as the GCE can install or removed members of the COE by balloting in annual elections, so the COE can install or removed members of the GCE, installing by approving ordinations and removing by dismissing from the ministry and removing credentials.

  8. "Is the COE under the authority of the GCE, or is the GCE under the authority of the COE? That is why I have repeatedly posted about the problems in having the GCE have the authority to select, and remove, members of the COE, while the COE has that same authority over the GCE."

    SafeTmanEd say…

    That is answered by the council itself in the question and answer section over on AC's blog.

    Check it out for yourself if you have any question about who is supposed to be in charge. You can find the quote exactly at the 40 minute mark in the Q&A session. Just pull the bar there, and you will get your answer directly from the horse's mouth.

    Here is the link…

  9. Some ministers called for an "Acts 15 conference" in WCG in 1995. Mr. Tkach said no, with loyal ministers saying that conference already had happened…. well, back in Acts 15.

    Seems like deja vu all over again.

  10. The LORD said, "Listen to my words:

    When a prophet of the LORD is among you,
    I reveal myself to him in visions,
    I speak to him in dreams.
    But this is not true of my servant Moses;
    he is faithful in all my house.
    With him I speak face to face,
    clearly and not in riddles;
    he sees the form of the LORD.
    Why then were you not afraid
    to speak against my servant Moses?"

    (Numbers 12:6-8, NIV)

    These days, many IMPOSTORS like to quote these verses and twist them to make it sound like God was talking about them personally along with Moses. But it is NOT! Notice that God was talking about His servant MOSES, and NOT about them.

    Moses saw the form of the LORD.
    The impostors have seen nothing.

    God spoke to Moses face to face.
    He never said a word to the impostors.

    God spoke to Moses clearly and not in riddles.
    He left the impostors in their own confusion.

    Even prophets get spoken to in dreams.
    The impostors do not get even that.

    The fact that they take these verses where God clearly spoke of his servant Moses and attempt to apply these verses to themselves discredits them and marks them as deliberate, deceitful FRAUDS. They have seen nothing, heard nothing, and know nothing.

    The problem with carelessly believing whoever comes along making wild and unprovable claims is that there are far too many former WCG people today claiming to be prophets, apostles, witnesses, etc. Jesus said to BEWARE of false prophets, NOT to believe them.



    The problem is, you can find statements both ways, even in the question and answer session. In one place a speaker says the GCE is the highest authority, and in another place a speaker says the COE is the highest active authority. Likewise you can find similar contradictory or confusing statements in other sermons and documents coming out of UCG.

  12. @Richard: Yeah, well, that's one of the things that bugs me. There are so many parallels to just prior to 1995 that it is unreal. Do they really think that many (if not most) aren't going to recognize that?

  13. Once upon a time…those that formed the United association left their WCG ministerial credentials behind in Pasadena, picked up their "bat and ball," sort of speak, went off in a "huff and puff" pout to form their own association. They lacked faith that God had anything to do with WCG and Joe Tkach, Senior and God did not provide them (those seeking to form United) a servant, so they re-credentialed themselves and voted/balloted in their own servant…and council of men.

    They continued to get their paychecks and looked forward to their paid retirement someday as they continued to vote their way to happiness.

    In a sense, they told God: "God, Father, we lack the faith that you have anything to do with this Joe Tkach, Senior, so we decided we cannot walk any longer with you and him. So, we went off to start to 'do our own thing:' what is right in our eyes. Since you did not provide us with another servant, and we reject Joe Tkach, Senior, please tell Christ that we have voted/balloted in this David Hulme to lead us in our association. Tell Christ He must work with David Hulme, and if we don't like what Hulme does, we'll vote him out and vote in another and will let you know about it, so you can tell Christ what guy He must next work with. We intend to vote our way to happiness!"

    It sounds silly…no reasoning at all! Well, it is silly, but we can all now see the “fruits/works” of such thinking!

    Can't we?

    And, if that weren't enough: the United association's leadership professes to want God to be a part of “their reconciliation process” now? Duh!

    John, one who attended that 1995 Indy Conference…and it isn't anything to brag about…and time will tell!

  14. @Anonymous: So, they were supposed to stay in an organization that no longer taught truth? Even if they were kicked out of it?

  15. "God, Father, we lack the faith that you have anything to do with this Joe Tkach, Senior"

    God may have answered that question Himself since Joe Tkach Sr was dead within a few months of disease that no one new about until just after the final breakup over doctrine.

    Some may chalk all that up to coincidence but…..