The last northeast Ohio resignation that I was expecting is now on the AC website. Dennis Kuhns (Youngstown elder) and Chris Moen (Canton & Mansfield) have now resigned. Columbus remains a COE supporter stronghold, and I’m not sure who was originally over Dayton, but eastern Ohio has pretty much broken away at the elder level.
By most estimates, COG-WA in Cleveland had around 70 people there, out of about 90 who normally attend (there have been some who had long left for various reasons). That does not mean, of course, that all 70 desire to leave UCG, but it does show the level of concern for what’s transpiring.
All said, not all elders that signed the open letter to Dennis Luker have resigned or been let go. However, the red pins far outnumber the blue pins on the congregational map that correlates those who signed the letter and those who have now left. BTW, the yellow pins are ones who left without signing the letter, if I understand correctly (if not, someone please correct me).
My understanding is that the yellow pins are simply local elders and/or non-pastoral salaried elders (such as Dr Levy, David Johnson).
By my count, 124 elders have resigned or been fired. We can anticipate at least 36 more of them by the end (out of all the resignations/firings, only 8 men have resigned that had not thrown support behind the Dec 13 letter).
59 full time pastors have currently resigned/been fired, and another 12 are left on the "anticipation" list (I am aware of at least four more that will happen within the next few days now that Winter Camp is over).
Along that topic, On Dec 6 Mr Kubik said there was 87 full time pastors in the field. There were about 13 firings/resignations that took place prior to that number, so assume 100 pastors in the field before these troubles. Out of the 59 current pastors, and 12 we can expect, UCG will be left with 29 of full time pastors, barring additional hires.
And if interested in further details, the names represented on the letters and current resignations contain:
-6 Camp directors (out of 7), including the national UYC coordinator
-2 Full time ABC faculty members (out of 3)
-1 Adjunct ABC faculty member (out of 4)
-3 ABC guest instructors (out of 8)
-2 Youth Corp program heads (out of 2)
-8 US Feast Site Coordinators (out of 11)
-Coordinator of Louisville Winter Family Weekend
-Former Operations Manager of Media
-2 Former Operations Managers of Ministerial Services
-6 former Council of Elders members
-2 Former Presidents of UCG
(note this is not an exhaustive list. I could be understating some of those numbers and certainly have not captured every detail that is represented)
Andrew wrote: "By my count, 124 elders have resigned or been fired. We can anticipate at least 36 more of them by the end…"
Well, that comes pretty close to my previous estimate.
"UCG will be left with 29 of full time pastors"
I didn't know how many they were to begin with, but even then, that figure is pretty staggering!
Having grown up in this Church and leaving in the 90's after it became clear to me that God is not in this kind of chaos that keeps happening over and over with just a little different spin each time, I can't help but wonder what is it that keeps some of you hanging on? This is an honest question, can anyone explain other than what you have been told by the leadership.
Anonymous (6:44 PM) I'm in the same boat with you. The people are constantly in fear of either losing salvation or losing out on the Kingdom. They believe to leave a church of God is to deny God and Christ. No doubt some really do believe in Christ for their salvation, but it seems most are focused on their obedience and not on the relationship. They're deceived by the enemy into putting an emphasis on following rules.
"Rebellion" has been a constant problem in worldwide church for decades. Why?
"Rules without a relationship leads to rebellion." – Josh McDowell
Thus the turmoil. In a general sense (obviously not all are like this), but they don't focus on the relationship because the law is more important. The law in their mind secures their salvation, to the detriment of Christ.
"…I can't help but wonder what is it that keeps some of you hanging on? This is an honest question, can anyone explain other than what you have been told by the leadership."
For what it is worth, here are just some of my reasons:
What else can one honestly do?
The Bible teaches the observance of the weekly, seventh-day Sabbath, rather than Sunday-keeping like the Roman Catholic Church and the vast majority of its Protestant daughter churches teach.
The Bible teaches the observance of God's annual festivals at three times of the year with their seven annual Sabbaths, rather than things like Christmas, Easter, Halloween, etc. like the Roman Catholic Church and the vast majority of its Protestant daughter churches observe.
The Bible teaches about clean and unclean animals, rather than trying to get people to eat all sorts of things that are bad for them like the Roman Catholic Church and the vast majority of its Protestant daughter churches do.
The Bible teaches that the incorrigibly wicked will ultimately be burned up in a lake of fire and simply cease to exist, rather than be tormented forever in a hell fire just for a mere seventy years of sinning like the Roman Catholic Church and the vast majority of its Protestant daughter churches believe.
The Bible teaches about the true Jesus, rather than about a false, long-haired, pagan-based, "another Jesus" that came to do away with His father's laws like the Roman Catholic Church and the vast majority of its Protestant daughter churches teach.
THE BIBLE TEACHES MANY OTHER SUCH THINGS, that the Roman Catholic Church and the vast majority of its Protestant daughter churches reject in order to go believe and practice something else.
Now, the sad fact that there are horrible problems today on the Church of God scene does NOT do away with the teachings of the Bible. A falling away from the truth, with hatred, betrayal, and offence, was prophesied to happen. People are supposed to persevere and endure to the end, not give up and abandon the truth. Rejecting false COG splinter groups along the way and wolves in sheep's clothing is not the same thing as rejecting the truth.
Even though bad characters are popping up everywhere, one must still read what the Bible says about various matters and obey it. This does not mean obeying false prophets who appear, as Jesus said to beware of them. The fact that there now seem to be wicked people everywhere does not mean that one should become wicked oneself.
As Simon Peter said, when Jesus asked the Twelve if they wanted to leave too, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life" (John 6:68, NIV).
Hope this little explanation helps.
I would add that we are commanded to not forsake assembling together (Heb 10:25).
Yes, things are bad. Things will always be bad. This is not the Kingdom yet.
Tell you what, though. If you are looking for a perfect church, you'll be looking a long time.
John D Carmack said…
I would add that we are commanded to not forsake assembling together (Heb 10:25).
The true believers do not forsake assembling together. Rather, they get banned from doing it. I have seen The WCG and its major splinter groups all bring in evil people and cast out innocent people. Such are the times. That is why I would not harp too much on that particular point.
Dear “grown up in this Church and leaving in the 90's”:
You said you were asking an honest question so bare with me if I sound like I’m preaching. If Sabbath keeping COG’s are the true church then Satan’s top priority will be trying to divide and destroy them. One somewhat quick way to check if Sabbath keeping COG’s are the true church, if you wanted, would be to do a study to see if Saturday is to be kept by Christians or not in the NKJV/KJV. Then do a search on the word commandment to see what it says in the New Testament. To us the commandments also include the 4th. If time doesn’t permit just read the last chapter of the book, especially verse 14 on commandment keeping. The rest of this last chapter will also cover some of why we joyfully hang on and endure until the end!
I don’t think God wants all these splits but he allows it. In Revelation 2&3 it looks to me that there will be at least 4 of the 7 church eras contemporary at the time of the end. I think this means that not only will there be church members with these prevailing attitudes of the 7 churches but also separate COG’s with a the different overall prevailing attitudes.
Speaking of all the chaos: I don’t know what all is going on with these splits. And we’re all sinners, me being one of the chiefs. But with that said, I would be scared to death to speak out against one of God’s ministers especially for others to see. In person, respectfully is a different matter. I would also be scared to death to start my own church especially if there was already the leading evangelist who already stepped out to carry on God’s work. Without vision the people perish. This evangelist kept and put before the members the zeal, fervency and vision of Matt 6:33 and Matt 24:14… Just like Mr. Armstrong did like a bulldog not letting go or deviating. I reread some of Mr. Armstrong’s works, autobiography… The theme of God’s government, his righteousness, zeal of preaching and seeking the KofG and the Ezekiel warning message was woven throughout. To me it looks like Christ says he will only protect with the place of safety those Philadelphians who are on fire for his word and doing his work… Like Christ we are responsible to be about our Fathers business preaching the KofG with zeal. With little strength we are called to do a great work.
Hi John. For those of us not on the Facebook page, perhaps you could share with us any information about the extent to which the membership has reacted to this split. Is there any estimates on what COGaWA attendance was? On the public "resolving issues" UCG facebook page, which is nothing more than " we follow the COE no matter what they do" page, estimates are that the membership has not really followed the ministry's example and departed from UCG. Is that true?
Anonymous wrote: "That is why I would not harp too much on that particular point."
Well, I wasn't "harping" on anything. I was answering a question. Moreover, it is Scripture. It is our duty to find a place we can worship God in peace and with others.
If we cannot get along with others on any level, then how do we expect to rule in the Kingdom? Every one of us has to ask ourselves that question.
@Anonymous, 4:39: I haven't been to the doves page in a while, but I'm not surprised any more by some of the things they say.
I think the real answer is that no one knows. This whole thing is in its beginning stages. The conference in Louisville hasn't even taken place yet. Some are attending both services because they haven't decided. Furthermore, some have no choice except stay or go to another fellowship entirely because their pastor is one of the COE strongholds.
Some areas have been harder hit than others. The only congregation in NE Ohio that hasn't been hit hard is Cambridge, because that congregation is Randy Stiver, who also pastors Columbus. Of course, they could elect to travel to Canton, but some places don't have that type of choice. UCG in all of Florida was pretty much decimated from what I've heard.
A statistic is just a snapshot in time. However, it may take a while to focus a very large camera.
I find it interesting that James Malm and a number of the pro-COE folks have been hammering away at an e-mail Jim Franks sent where he organized ministers to meet to discuss the coming separation. This was evidence of fraud, according to this group. Now, Malm has had to backtrack in his accusations ( a bit like when he accused Arnold Hampton of being a unitarian and then had to retract his exposé a day later)and write the following clarification:
"Dennis Luker gave permission for the Franks meeting to go ahead for the purpose of discussing the coming split. The Franks meeting was to discuss how to carry out an amicable split according to Denny’s desires. A split that Denny had called for ever since his very first speach. After this meeting the Council discussed the issue and decided to put up a fight. The Dec 23rd letter was then published at United Real Time. The Franks group took this as a betrayal and responded by initiating the mass resignations."
Things look a little different now. In a rumor filled environment, a high premium needs to be placed on the verification of "facts". Rushing to publish the next big scoop does a disservice to people who are trying to make an informed decision.
I am just wondering if I have this straight…Since the Bible does say to not forsake the assembling of yourself together, the group you must assembly yourself with has to make the list of things you can do and the list of things you can't do of utmost priority no matter how chaotic it is. So much for the Bible also speaking about God not being the author of confusion, especially when it keeps happening over and over since the beginning of it's formation.
Anonymous wrote: "the group you must assembly yourself with has to make the list of things you can do and the list of things you can't do of utmost priority no matter how chaotic it is."
Talk about confusing! What are you asking? Who is making "the list of things you can do and … can't do"? Last time I checked, that is God Who says what you do and don't do!
Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace. He came to bring a sword. He did not promise "your best life now". He promised persecution. He did not promise no strife. He promised you would be thrown out of religious establishments. He did not promise prosperity. He promised persecution.
Satan hates the Church. He will use human emotions and circumstances to attempt to divide and conquer. He does this in the world. He does this in the Church. He is the one who ultimately sows discord and confusion.
Thanks John for having a blog in which you are not afraid to post comments that are not in agreement with your belief, I commend you for that.
You are right about God having a list of things you can and can't do, the list I am speaking of is the one in which one man put his own spin on that list and made them a condition of salvation.
I agree Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace to the world but he did come to bring peace to your heart.
The confusion I am speaking of is the confusion that has gone on in the COG since it's foundation. If you examine all the changes in belief's and disagreements it has had; one starts to get whiplash, I know I lived through many of them. To me, that is the type of confusion that does not exist if God's spirit is there.
@Anonymous: You are quite welcome. Furthermore, thank you for taking time to stopy by and comment.
From the beginning, I wanted a blog that was different. We are not cookies cut out of a sheet, after all, and we may have genuine differences of opinion. If what I believe holds up to some scrutiny, then that is good. If not, then may the Holy Spirit show me where I lack true understanding.
"The confusion I am speaking of is the confusion that has gone on in the COG since it's foundation."
And yet, the foundation was in the Book of Acts. Over and over, we see persecution, arguments about circumcision and even stonings. Paul wrote of many controversies, and John wrote of Diotrephes throwing real Christians out of the church.
Then, there is the parable of the wheat and the tares.
So, the ideal would be a safe place to be able to worship God in Spirit and in truth. However, it has rarely been that way if you look at history.
Perhaps, just perhaps, if there is a church where there are no disagreements, then maybe it isn't God's Church after all.
John D Carmack said…
"Well, I wasn't 'harping' on anything."
Just so there is no misunderstanding or hard feelings, allow me to explain that I never meant that as accusing you personally of "harping" at all. You brought up a valid point that I totally agree with. It was merely meant to explain a practical problem that I have observed in the COGs and why I personally would not "harp too much" on it. This does not mean that it should not be brought up.
@Anonymous: Actually I was a little bit amused (as well as puzzled) by your choice of words. But, yes, it is worth discussing.
Hello John. to anonymous who posted this; "The confusion I am speaking of is the confusion that has gone on in the COG since it's foundation."
As John pointed out the COG began (Acts)with the recieving of the Holy Spirit into those true believers. However it was Jesus Himself who laid the groundwork and began building the COG, as seen in Matt.16:15-20 and elsewhere. It is and always has been a Spiritual organism–growing and overcoming. Jesus Christ (the true one)is head and cheif cornerstone of the foundation. Rev. 2-3 in the letters show it is only those overcomers who will be in the Kingdom of God. Jesus began with those whom He chose for apostles to be the first leaders and even just before passover, in the gospel accounts, some of those apostles were bickering over who was going to be the greatest among them. However after recieving the Holy Spirit to work IN them, it seems that they were able to begin to overcome this human frailty.
The human flesh will always get in the way until Christ returns, because Satan is always there behind the scenes using people to stir up trouble either in the COG or someone outside it now, who seems to be disgruntled against it.Scripture reveals through the apostle John that once loyal members turned sour and went out, only to then attack the Church. Anytime someone is critical of the COG just because it IS the COG–you can bet Satan is stirring that one up!
May God grant us forgiveness for our weaknesses and open our eyes to see the need to repent and strive to have a pure heart.
Anony Jon